Transcript
Melissa Kruger (00:08):
I think we’re just constantly thinking I’ve got to train them, but even with discipleship, we bring people along. We’re following Jesus together. We don’t have all the answers. We don’t know everything. When they see you not have to be perfect and you continue, that’s going to leave an impression in their mind. Them even watching our imperfect pursuit of God is going to be an example to them.
Amy Petersen (00:38):
Well, hey everybody. I’m Amy Petersen, and welcome back to the Ministry Wives podcast. If you’ve been in ministry for any length of time, you know that one of the heaviest burdens that we carry is for our own kids to love Jesus. You may have even uttered, “I know I should be discipling my kids, but between the church calendar and the chaos of daily life, it can really feel overwhelming to even know where to start.” Well, today I am so honored to sit down with someone who understands this tension. Melissa Kruger is an author, a speaker, a mother of three who has spent years encouraging women in their walk with Jesus. And today, we’re going to talk about how we can lead our families in their walk with grace instead of guilt. Melissa, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. It’s so good to be here.
Melissa Kruger (01:30):
I’m looking forward to our conversation.
Amy Petersen (01:31):
To kick us off, could you share a little bit about your current season and your heart for ministry?
Melissa Kruger (01:36):
Yeah. I just entered the empty nest season. So, that was a big transition for me this year. So, I have a daughter who’s a freshman. I have a son who’s a senior in college, and I have another daughter who was a nurse, but she and her husband just left for the mission field. So, they are serving in Southeast Asia. So, I launched one really far away this year. And so that was probably the bigger transition was to have one. She’s seriously 12 time zones away. So it really is as far as she could be.
Amy Petersen (02:11):
And that’s, like, the sacrifice of motherhood because we raised them to do this thing, but then we have to let go when they do the thing.
Melissa Kruger (02:19):
Yes. They actually listened, and they fell in love with Jesus, and they want to share them with the nations. I’m like, okay, I can’t really argue with everything we’ve been telling you all these years. But it does make you cry a little bit.
Amy Petersen (02:33):
Well, that’s great. And so you’re empty nesting. And what’s your heart for ministry? Kind of give us a framework for where you’re at and what you’re doing.
Melissa Kruger (02:41):
I work for an organization called the Gospel Coalition. I’m the Vice President of Discipleship Programming there. I love what I get to do. I get to help resources that equip women in local churches, and I help with our conferences. My main thing is I really love creating resources that help people actively do ministry. So, I am not a writer just to talk. I actually like getting people in God’s Word or giving them a tool that’s going to help connect them with someone else. So, I spent years doing ministry in the local church. And so it was “What could I not find?” That’s what I’m trying to write.
Amy Petersen (03:20):
Oh, that’s so good. Filling in that space. And it seems like it’s very learner-focused, giving someone the practice and the application to then take it into their real lives, which is a huge gap in all of our lives because we can sure talk about it, but then doing it is the whole ‘nother thing. Okay. So you have a new resource. Tell us about that that’s coming out. It’s for busy parents and how to disciple their children with confidence and consistency. Those are two big words in parenting. Tell us about that.
Melissa Kruger (03:52):
The Good News Family Devotional, it’s 52 weeks through the Gospel of Mark. And I’ll be honest, when I opened my first copy, I cried because I realized this season as a family is over. And it was such a precious time. I mean, we really, we spent years and years, we always had family devotions at breakfast, around the kitchen table, talking about God’s Word, praying for one another, and what a special time. So, my hope in this is to make it a little bit easier for families to have it because there are so many things competing for our attention, and a lot of people just don’t know where to begin. And they don’t feel equipped. They’re terrified to teach God’s Word because they don’t feel equipped to answer all the questions. So, my husband actually wrote The Devotional. He’s a professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological Seminary, but it’s not written at a professor level.
(04:41):
He’s really good at bringing it down and making it applicable. So, the devotion is actually for the parents’ heart. You can read, it’s just going through the one gospel, the whole year. So, it’s very doable. It’s not overwhelming. And you can talk to your family about Jesus for a year in little bits. We were really trying to model it on Deuteronomy 6, which says, “These commands I give you are to be on your heart. Teach them to your children.” But the first call as parents is for them to be on our heart, and then we teach them as we go about our day. Then, it has questions for younger children, questions for older children, a big idea for the day, kind of just helping the parent say, “Here you go.” Because we were doing it, like our kids are six years apart. So we’d often have a six-year-old and a 12-year-old.
(05:26):
“How do you do this together?” And so that’s what we were trying to create a resource that would work and just be a tool families could use so that they could study God’s Word together. And I always just say, “What our kids are going to remember is the pattern of the home, not the perfection.” So if you get three mornings sitting around that table together or three evenings sitting around the table together and ask them questions, it’s the pattern of our homes that will reside with them and that they’ll remember and that they’ll take into the world. And it is interesting. I’ve thought a lot because one thing we did every morning, I just divided up our missionaries, and we prayed for them. And now I have a daughter who is one of those missionaries, and I realized, oh, that praying all the time for them just normalized some of this.
(06:16):
And so you never know the legacy you’re passing on, not through telling them to go do something, but inviting them into ministry. So it wasn’t just that we prayed for each other. You’re allowing your family to be receiving from the Lord together and serving through things like prayer, the quiet service, and you’re showing them that that’s really important, too.
Amy Petersen (06:37):
Oh, I think that is such an encouraging word. When I heard that word “consistency,” that makes me think of like this 52-week chart, and it’s like a checkbox or a 365-day chart. And I very quickly, if I sense any failure, I will just close the door and say, “Forget it. We can’t do this.” And looking back, I can’t tell you how many times that we stopped and started devotions, but then just said, “It’s not working.” But from what you’re saying is, it’s just the pattern. It’s just showing back up. And I love the fact that we could have something in our hands that’s focused, that has some helpful questions to follow, and it springs up from our own heart and overflowing to our kids. There’s so many things as parents that we intentionally want to pour into our kids, but with God, I have learned that as you point your kids to Him, He’s the One that does the end product.
(07:37):
Like you never had a mission of saying, “My kids are going to be missionaries.” But in showing them Jesus, it unleashed Him to do what He was going to do in their lives. And I think that that is such a great encouragement to those of us who are in the throes of those building years of the kids.
Melissa Kruger (08:00):
Yes, yes. Really just inviting them into your walk with Jesus is enough. I mean, I think we’re just constantly thinking, “I’ve got to train them, I’ve got to train them.” But even with discipleship, we bring people along. We’re following Jesus together. And so another thing we put in the book is there’s a family application question so that our kids see we’re growing as well. We don’t have all the answers. We don’t know everything. We’re learning. So, I even think what you said about starting and stopping is really important. When they see you not have to be perfect and you continue, that’s going to leave an impression in their mind, “Oh, I know I only read my Bible twice this week. I can do it again next week. Maybe I’ll get three days next week.” Them even watching our imperfect pursuit of God is going to be an example to them.
(08:57):
I think we just have to kind of like lower the temperature and say, “No, no, we just keep walking forward. We just keep moving forward.” And there’s no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. All we’re showing them is we’re saying, “Hey, here’s where the water is. Come with me and drink.”
Amy Petersen (09:13):
Oh my goodness. That is such a relief, and it really communicates grace that we champion anyway. Okay. So you have now launched your kids, and as you have done this through the years of raising them and looking back, are there any examples or stories that were encouraging to you that, “Oh, maybe they’re getting it,” or “Oh gosh, that was a interesting little bump. Let’s revisit that.” Are there any things that you can share just by your own experience to encourage those who are listening?
Melissa Kruger (09:46):
Yeah. One thing I want to really encourage parents with is you can never know what you don’t know. So, when my kids were coming up, Instagram and things like that were new. So, there were no books yet telling us about the dangers of social media. So, I mean, it came out when my daughter was about 12, and I let her get it. I was like, “Oh, this is how people show pictures now.” I mean, now that sounds like you gave your kid a cigarette. I mean, I’m like, “No, no, no. It was just like normal back in the wild west of new social media.” And so going beside that is we’re studying God’s Word together, we’re praying for our kids, we’re going to church. We had a guest preacher at church when she was about 13, and he didn’t preach on social media. No one was doing that back in the day.
(10:36):
He just preached on not wasting your life. She got in the car that afternoon, and she goes, “Yeah, I’m going to delete that app Instagram. It’s just a waste of my time.” And so it left this impression on me of the average means of grace of taking your kid to church. We think we have to be doing on this thing. I wasn’t aware of what would come with social media. I had no idea, but the average just church attendance with a guest preacher, the Spirit’s at work. And we can’t do it all. We can’t see it all, but the Lord sees it all. And we just keep, again, following Him, be in the Word, be in prayer, be in the church, and He’s going to work. And that’s all we can do. That’s our faithfulness we bring to the table, so to speak, but He’s going to convict our kids and show us things we’re not … There are dangers out there we’re not aware of, and we can’t.
(11:35):
We’re finite. He’s God. He can see everything. And it was just one of those examples of how just taking your kid to church, just remember what a blessing that is. Even if you’re not doing family devotions, just getting them to church every week.
(11:50):
Just to sometimes take the pressure off doing everything perfectly. A lot of ministry families, their poor kids are at church all the time. But just remember that: what a gift to grow up in a family that goes to church every week. That that habit is ingrained in their life. That’s a gift. That’s discipleship. Taking them every week, that’s a huge gift in their life that I think sometimes we forget other kids don’t have at all.
Amy Petersen (12:18):
Your kid’s spiritual life is not made or broken on having family devotion or not. And it is just a wonderful way to involve intentional conversation of real-life walk with Jesus.
Melissa Kruger (12:36):
We could have done family devotions all of our kids’ lives and taken them to church, and they may not be walking with Jesus. The Spirit is what gives life. But what we are leaving when we do family devotions, when we take our kids to church, when we pray with them regularly, that is an inheritance. And so I think we often think of inheritance as leaving money to our kids. That’s not what an inheritance is. An inheritance is, “I’ve got these 18 years with you, and I’m going to fill you up to the fullness of the riches of God’s Word and walking with Him.” You may totally squander that inheritance. You may push it aside, you may not want it, but it’s in your heart. And so when you hit that rock bottom at 40 years old, these Scriptures that will remind you that you can still come back, they’re going to be in your heart.
(13:28):
What a rich inheritance. Maybe they’ll be 80. We don’t know, but it’s in their soul, and that’s a gift to them. They may reject the inheritance we give them, but what legacy we get to leave. And I just always want to say to ministry families, you’re doing it in more ways than you realize. I know we have this ideal version of ourselves that none of us live up to. I’ve watched a lot of kids who grow up in Christian ministry homes, and they love Jesus. I think there’s this, “Oh, it’s going to mess up our kids.” A lot of them still want to actually be in the church and be in ministry. So, just be encouraged. Could they walk away and reject it? Yes. I mean, anybody could, but a lot of times, they really feel the rich blessing of what they’ve been given.
Amy Petersen (14:18):
It’s so true. And even in their silly teenage-y selves, when you don’t see the outward expression of gratitude for all that you’re pouring into them, it is. I mean, I was that silly teenage girl, and I just, in my 20s and 30s, just after making some decisions of my own, thinking that I was following the fulfilling life, was anchored back to, and God just whispered in my heart, “Amy, come back to what you know.” And it’s because of all those years of church and family and youth group and memorizing Scripture that I had neglected for years or at least just kind of peppered in to get what I wanted, I thought. But then the way that the Lord uses His Word, which is alive and active and powerful, anything that we can do to pour that into our kids is leaving them, like you said, with that legacy.
(15:11):
Oh, that’s so beautiful. Okay. So, speaking of silly teenagers, I know there’s many of us out there, and you had three come through your family, whether they were silly or not, I don’t know. But doing family devotions sometimes meets resistance from the kids with snotty attitudes. So, how did you handle that? Because I think you addressed a point that you’re just so worried that you’re going to have so much Bible conversation that you’re going to turn them away from it, which you addressed so beautifully just a moment before. But how did you handle some snotty teenage attitudes of, “Oh, we have to do this again,” or eye rolling. What did you do?
Melissa Kruger (15:54):
I will say I used humor a lot with the kids because I do think it’s helpful. I mean, when you have a teenage boy, there’s a lot of grunting and rather than like … I mean, I think we can just overplay respect sometimes, and like, “That’s not respectful of you to grunt at me.” You got to relax a little bit and be like, “Hey, I don’t speak grunt. Could you use your words?” And they normally laugh, and there’s just some—relax a little bit. So, part of it for me is I taught teenagers. So, I taught in a public high school, I taught high school math, which is no one’s favorite subject. These are not places people want to be. And so, and I had to try to rally the troops to learn the math. It actually, the Bible is more interesting. So, it was an easier task for me, I’ll be honest.
(16:46):
What I will say this is when, and I found this in teaching, when my students knew I actually cared about them as people more than just the subject, they were more willing to listen to me. So, I think we have to sometimes say, “Hey, if y’all are into this today, why don’t we just pray for one another?” That’s okay. It’s a bad day. It seems like something’s going on. Everybody’s busy. That’s okay. We don’t always have to enforce our agenda. And I think you can get that kid one-on-one sometimes and say, “Hey, it seems like you’re really not liking to study Scripture. Can you tell me what’s going on?” I just don’t think the teenage-age years are the years to get into big battles about a lot of things, especially in front of the other kids. So, it is normative for kids to want to push back on stuff.
(17:31):
They’re going to ask good, and that’s actually asking good questions. Don’t be so afraid of their questions when they’re like, “Why do we believe this book anyway?” “Great question” should be our first response, not fear. We go into fear, “Oh my gosh, they’re going to become an apostate. They’re not going to want to read the Bible.” I think we’ve just got to say these are really normal and healthy things for our kids to start asking questions about. So, I think if we can kind of just settle in and just have a conversation, you can’t control them, just have a conversation with them, and just enter in. You cannot save your child. So, just lower the temperature is what I want to say to a lot of people and just stop reacting in fear. Faith says, “God will save. I’m just here to give the best answers I can give about why I believe and why I think the Word’s worthy to be studied.”
(18:21):
But I just think sometimes we’re trying to force something, and we lose the relationship trying to keep a rule. And I just think it’s an important time to lean in and listen with our teens, especially.
Amy Petersen (18:36):
Oh, I know that that is an encouragement for the listener who is really struggling and fearful about the direction and the attitudes that they’re seeing from their teenagers and thinking that they’re doing all the right things, but then holding it a lot more personally than what is true. And I think that what you just said will be such a soothing, peaceful balm. And we pray, listener, that it will just release your hands and your grip from the striving of day-to-day and the responsibility that you feel that really is only God’s. Okay. So let’s talk about this devotional and Mark. There’s four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, and Luke and John. And why is Mark a perfect entry point for the family?
Melissa Kruger (19:22):
Well, my husband and I argue about this. I love the Gospel of John. So, he won is what really happened. Mark is great. It just starts into the story. So, for kids, that’s great. It’s all about Jesus. And so, you’re getting to watch Jesus react with different people. And so, you really start to just gain valuable lessons. I think sometimes we don’t study the Gospels enough.
Amy Petersen (19:42):
What a great journey to take and then to unfold your kids no matter how old they are. And you said breakfast. How did that work for you at breakfast time with littles?
Melissa Kruger (19:52):
People ask me that all the time, and it’s so funny. Here’s my biggest tip on parenting: The kids only know the house they’re brought up in. My kids, think about it. They don’t know what happens at breakfast at other people’s homes. They just don’t know. So, it was just, you brush your teeth, you sit down at the table. It’s like 10 minutes, but every … We just had 10 minutes. It might be better. Just do it Sunday afternoon, do it Saturday morning. Maybe that’s your time. Find your time that works for your family. If you can start patterns earlier and just act like it’s normal, it becomes a really sweet time. I mean, I will say we laughed more around that table. It wasn’t a forced thing. I want to stress that. It was a welcome table where we prayed for one another. We tried to love each other there.
(20:43):
It was not a rigid thing. And I just want to say, especially because we’re talking to a lot of pastors’ families, it can be really tempting to think of your children’s spiritual growth as an accompaniment to your ministry. And you just got to let go of that. If your kid susses out at all that you are worried about their spiritual growth because of how it reflects on you, that’s just going to lead to some rebellion, and they’re just not going to want to be a part of it. You really always have to say, “Hey, I want your best. That’s what I’m here for. I’m not embarrassed by you. I’m not upset by you. I want you to know I’ve walked with Jesus a long time. I think this is the best way, blessed life. This is the best life, but I’m here for your questions, and I’m never going to be ashamed or offended by you, but I want to be available to you to tell you the best news the world’s ever received.” That’s a very different message than “If you mess up, it’s going to reflect really poorly on this family.”
(21:47):
And so we just, I think as ministry families, we really have to guard against that.
Amy Petersen (21:51):
Man, that is a word. You can just pick one time a week. And if you can start there, I promise you it will yield dividends of spiritual enjoyment around the table, but then also you’ll see it in your kids’ life, whether it’s now or 20 years from now. As parents, I think it’s really important just to begin that. Melissa, I just feel like we have had just such a rich conversation about parenting and parenting kids and how to infuse God’s Word into that. Is there a specific encouragement or a Scripture that you could give women who are listening that could be, kind of, the handles to hang on to as they are day-to-day, loving their family, serving their family, serving their church, but might feel like she’s failing at both home and family?
Melissa Kruger (22:46):
That’s a great question. The place I turned to a lot was, not as a condemnation, but this is an encouragement, was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength, and soul. The word that I give you is to be in your heart just to even to just release the pressure for ourselves of all the things I need to do today, what I really need is to be abiding in Jesus. I mean, that picture is Psalm 1: “Blessed is the man who doesn’t do all these things, but his delight is in the law of the Lord. On it, he meditates day and night. He’s like a tree planted by a stream of water, whatever he does is prosperous.” And that, again, we’re not talking about monetary prosperity. We’re talking about soul prosperity. And then that same theme is picked up with Jesus in the garden.
(23:30):
He says, “I’m the vine. You’re the branches. Abide in me, apart from me, you can do nothing.” And so it’s just, if we feel like we’re not enough, we’re absolutely not enough. That’s okay. Lean into the strength that is yours, which is in Christ. He is inviting you to Himself, and He wants good things for you.
Amy Petersen (23:52):
That’s a different posture. We’re going to link your book, your devotional below, so that the listeners can click on it and begin this journey in Mark with their families, which will just be such a sweet inheritance for families all over. And Melissa, I also want to give you an opportunity because I would love to invite our listeners to the Gospel Coalition Women’s Conference coming up this summer. So, tell us a little bit about that.
Melissa Kruger (24:15):
Oh yeah. I’d love for you to come, and especially ministry wives. You pour out all the time. You plan tons of things, I’m sure, all the time. And so I feel like part of why we work so hard to create this is so you can just come and be fed. Usually, we have around 9,000 women. There are seven keynotes. They’ll all be on the Psalms. So we’re going through all the different genres of Psalm: lament, wisdom psalms, praise. I’ll actually be teaching on Psalm 1, but then we have over 50 breakout sessions on every kind of topic. Parenting, my husband and I’ll be talking about the book there, but there’s things, all the topics you could imagine are there. And it’s just a joy to be in a room and feel like you’re not alone. To sing with other women, to be encouraged. And if I could, I would say go to your church and say, “Will you pay for me to come here?” Because you really need it, and you need a time that you’re not in charge of.
(25:13):
And so that’s what we’ve tried to create is this place where ministries’ wives, and then we have a church conference next year, can come and just be fed after pouring out to so many.
Amy Petersen (25:26):
I love that. We’re going to link the website below, so that they can get more information and register, and hopefully we will gather there together and be poured into Send Relief. We’ll have a booth. And so if you go, we’re going to have fun freebies and things there. So, come by and see us. But Melissa, we’re just so grateful for this conversation and being able to pour into families and ministry families. So, thank you for joining me.
Melissa Kruger (25:52):
Yeah. And I just want to say thank you to everyone who’s listening, who’s pouring into their churches and serving. The unseen labors of women in ministry and wives of pastors, it’s a beautiful thing, and the Lord sees it and He knows what you do.
Amy Petersen (26:14):
Well, thank you so much for listening to Season 8 of the Ministry Wives podcast. We will see you again soon.
