Transcript
Dan Hurst (00:03):
Welcome to Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock, where we equip pastors to take their churches from declining to thriving, by pointing them to a new future and a new hope. Join us weekly for encouragement and practical advice in your pastoring journey.
(00:19):
Welcome back to Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock.
Mark Hallock (00:25):
What’s up, guys?
Dan Hurst (00:28):
We have spent the last couple of days in Inglewood, Colorado.
Mark Hallock (00:33):
Yes.
Dan Hurst (00:33):
Do they say Colorado or Colorado?
Mark Clifton (00:35):
Not California. This morning, I was leaving the hotel, and I drove through McDonald’s, and I needed my get directions to McDonald’s, so I got my thing on,. It took me to the nearest McDonald’s. And then after I got to McDonald’s, I said, “I need to go to Calvary Church Inglewood.” So, it gave me directions,, and I get on I- 25, and I think, “I’m going way out west here.” So, I looked at it, it was taking me to the Calvary Chapel in Inglewood, California.
Mark Hallock (01:01):
In California? Oh no way.
Mark Clifton (01:03):
I had to turn around and come back. We’re not in California. We’re not in California.
Dan Hurst (01:09):
We’re here. We are in the basement, the hallowed halls of Calvary, Inglewood. Colorado. I wanted to throw this at you guys. The other day, I was at another conference, and I was talking to a couple of pastors, and they said, “Hey, we like listening to Revitalize and Replant. You guys give these really cool hacks.” Cool hacks. Cool hacks. Cool hacks. Yeah, just things you can do real quick to solve things. And I thought, “Uh, well …”
Mark Clifton (01:43):
What was that? That TBS radio show? The two guys that were the mechanics. Remember that?
Dan Hurst (01:49):
Oh yeah. Oh, the two brothers.
Mark Clifton (01:51):
The two brothers. Yeah, that’s what we are. We get under the hood of your church and fix it right now.
Dan Hurst (01:56):
Fix it right away.
(01:59):
Yeah. The truth of the matter is there are no quick fixes.
Mark Clifton (02:01):
There are no quick fixes.
Dan Hurst (02:02):
There are no quick fixes. And as a matter of fact, if you start doing that, you can get yourself in a lot of trouble. So, we thought, “Let’s talk about this.” Let’s talk about … And you came up with some ideas, Hallock. Hallock comes up with ideas after everybody’s gone to bed.
Mark Clifton (02:18):
I know. He does.
Dan Hurst (02:19):
Like one of those guys—
Mark Hallock (02:19):
You guys are all sleeping. I tried to get you excited. It’s 12 midnight.
Dan Hurst (02:23):
Night owl.
Mark Hallock (02:25):
It is the problem of being out West, Clifton, because at least you’re always an hour—
Mark Clifton (02:29):
When we come out here, we all go to this little conference center, and all four of us stay in the same room in four different bunks. We bring our own bed, our own sheets and towels, and we have a litle camp out there.
Mark Hallock (02:42):
That’d be quite a thing.
Dan Hurst (02:44):
It’s gly. It’s ugly.
Mark Clifton (02:47):
All right. I got to tell you, there are times that … Brothers, I love y’all, but there are times sometimes you ask me to come speak at a place. If I got to bring my own sheets and towels, I’m past that age, bro. I’m past the age of bringing my own bedding. Okay. Just letting you know.
Mark Hallock (03:07):
The body can’t take it anymore.
Dan Hurst (03:09):
All right. Boy, it’s getting slap happy in here.
Mark Hallock (03:13):
Okay.
Dan Hurst (03:14):
Kyle is going, “Oh no.” We’ve lost-
Mark Hallock (03:16):
Okay. So here’s where we’re going. We’re talking about the danger of quick fixes in church revitalization.
Dan Hurst (03:22):
This is why you don’t want to do quick fixes.
Mark Hallock (03:24):
Yeah, that’s right. And there’s four of these.
Mark Clifton (03:25):
But everybody wants a quick fix.
Mark Hallock (03:27):
Everybody wants a quick fix.
Mark Clifton (03:28):
Especially your church members.
Mark Hallock (03:29):
Yeah, that’s right. Everybody wants it, wants to cut corners. The problem is we’ve got to get under the surface of quick fixes if we want to see true rule.
Mark Clifton (03:36):
And everybody knows one church that turned it around on a dime.
Mark Hallock (03:40):
Well, that’s true.
Mark Clifton (03:40):
And that’s the exception, which proves the rule. A church that turns it around on a dime, one of two things happen. God determined for His purposes to do that one time, that instance, right? And He’s perfectly privileged to do that if He wants to. Or number two, there’s a long backstory behind it that you and I don’t know.
Mark Hallock (04:01):
That’s a good point.
Mark Clifton (04:02):
But it did not turn around quickly. Some other stuff happened. It’s one of the two things. Churches do not turn around quickly. And I think God desires to make us work diligently and patiently to edify us and to make us depend on Him.
Mark Hallock (04:16):
I agree.
Mark Clifton (04:16):
If Moses had showed up the first moment to Pharaoh and said, “Let my people go. ” And Pharaoh said, “Sure, why not? ” The Israelites would have thought, “Well, we should have asked a long time ago. Moses, he’s a great negotiator, and maybe Pharaoh’s not that bad a guy after all.” But because they had to go through all of what they went through, they realized their captivity was really difficult, and only God could free them. And so, He may put your church in that position. I just want you to know that.
Dan Hurst (04:45):
And that quick fix lasted how long?
Mark Clifton (04:47):
Yeah, absolutely. All right.
Mark Hallock (04:49):
Well, here’s number one, and actually, I think this is the most important. Programs cannot replace spiritual renewal. We talk about this all the time.
Mark Clifton (04:57):
Yeah. We wanted to say one of the first signs of a dying church is an overreliance on programs. You got to have programs, you got to have some structure. I mean, you got to have a program, but the program doesn’t change your heart.
Mark Hallock (05:08):
Yeah.
Mark Clifton (05:09):
A program doesn’t make you repentant. A program doesn’t make you love Jesus. A program doesn’t make you love the neighborhood. A program is a tool that you need in certain ways, but the program is not the … It’s not the heart of it.
Mark Hallock (05:23):
There’s no power in a program.
Mark Clifton (05:24):
There you go. That’s what I’m trying to say.
Mark Hallock (05:25):
There’s no power in the program.
Mark Clifton (05:26):
There’s power in the Holy Spirit.
Mark Hallock (05:27):
Power in the Spirit.
Mark Clifton (05:28):
Power in the gospel, but not power in the program. And one of the reasons we look for a program is that it doesn’t make us change our heart.
(05:37):
It doesn’t make us change our attitude. If we just work this program, it’s like, I” want to plant some tomatoes. So tell me how big the pot needs to be, how much soil I need to mix in there, how much fertilizer. And if I work the program, I’ll have a tomato.” That’s not how the church works.
Mark Hallock (05:55):
Why do you think churches would rather rely on programs than spiritual renewals?
Mark Clifton (06:00):
Because it doesn’t impact … They don’t have to make difficult changes. They don’t have to confess their sin. They don’t have to change their heart. And it’s a very human-centered approach. And we’re drawn to those things. We’re not drawn to the … Look, I love this. I heard it the other day. Somebody preached it and I’m going to preach it. When Peter gives his amazing confession, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And then Jesus says, “Flesh and blood didn’t reveal that to you, but my Father which is in heaven.” What an affirmation. “Peter, you heard directly from the Lord.” Out of the same mouth that just made that proclamation, he says something satanic. He says, “No, you’re not going to go there.” And Jesus says, “Get behind me, Satan.” Look how quickly Peter was drawn from that which is holy to that which is secular.
(06:58):
We’re quickly drawn to the secular things, to the sinful things. Our hearts are drawn to that. And I’m not saying programs are sinful, but they are secular. A certain program will work in Awanas, or it’ll work in Boy Scouts, or a certain program will work with the church, or it may even work with rotary. I mean, organizational structure and things like that.
Mark Hallock (07:19):
Believers, nonbelievers.
Mark Clifton (07:21):
But you’ll need a program to do something, but you can’t rely on the program.
Mark Hallock (07:26):
That’s right.
Mark Clifton (07:27):
And we will lean toward that which is secular and ungodly. We always will. We don’t drift toward holiness. We have to fight that. Henry Blackaby used to always remind me, “The ways of God are not the ways of men.” And we love the ways of men because we’re men. And so it’s easy for us to rely on programs and say, “Well, I can understand this.” There’s some things about the Holy Spirit. I can’t understand. There’s some things about the way God works. I can’t understand. So, we need to work on leaning into those things rather than into the program.
Mark Hallock (07:58):
Another analogy real quick is The Trellis and The Vine. And this is a great book that was written, but you think about it, a trellis is important. A trellis actually helps to maintain. If the trellis in a sense is the programs, right? Is the structure. You’ve got to have a trellis, but the trellis by itself isn’t the point. The vine is the point.
Mark Clifton (08:18):
Without the vine, the trellis is pointless.
Mark Hallock (08:20):
Yeah, what’s the point? And the vine is life. Now, if you don’t have a trellis, the vine actually can kill itself. It’ll choke itself out. And so if you’re just all like this, you don’t get it, either. But the point is there are a lot of churches that have a beautiful trellis, and there’s no life.
Mark Clifton (08:35):
Because we’re drawn to the trellis, which is something we can build, we can control. Rather than the vine.
Mark Hallock (08:41):
Yeah, exactly. That’s right.
(08:43):
So number two, you ready? Yeah. You’ve got number two?
Dan Hurst (08:46):
No, go ahead.
Mark Hallock (08:47):
You got it? Number two? Do I have number two? Okay. No, here it is. Structural change cannot substitute for discipleship.
Dan Hurst (08:54):
Well, there it is again. I mean, that’s it. The structure is— If we depend on the structure, as opposed to depend on the results of why we have the structure.
Mark Hallock (09:05):
Exactly.
Dan Hurst (09:06):
We’re going to fall.
Mark Hallock (09:07):
We were talking recently about you need to have a discipleship pathway of some kind. Sure. The problem is you can have a cool, slick-looking discipleship pathway, and the structure is beautiful, but there’s no discipleship happening.
Mark Clifton (09:20):
Well, discipleship doesn’t take place in a classroom two hours a week in a church building or even in some place else. Discipleship is what happens as you do life together with people that you’re in covenant with to, do life together, however that looks.
Mark Hallock (09:32):
That’s right.
Mark Clifton (09:33):
And so discipleship can’t be a program. There has to be perhaps a program element to it to give you some on-ramps and some guidance. But when I was a teenager, we had something, and hey, the Baptist Sunday School Board meant they meant well with this, and I’m sure it helped a lot of people. It probably helped me as a high schooler, but we had a three-ring binder called The Disciple Life Notebook, and basically, you’d go through every day of the week. There were Scriptures to read, and Scripture to memorize, and something to write down, and it was a Disciple Life Notebook. I guess once a week I would get with our youth group on Wednesday night, and we would talk about what we’d done that week and all. But that wasn’t discipling, that was Bible study. It was personal guidance. It was quiet time learning.
(10:21):
Oh, that’s fine. But there was no discipleship that went on. Nobody spoke into my life.
Mark Hallock (10:26):
Pouring into you. Yeah.
Mark Clifton (10:27):
I didn’t pour into anybody else. It wasn’t mutual. I was doing this little notebook every day, and then on Wednesday night coming together and seeing who’d done what. Discipleship isn’t a notebook. It’s a relationship with people. And we got to give honors. Talk about here how you can encourage people in discipleship here at your church, Mark. How do you encourage that? Now, not everybody in your church is going to be involved in discipleship, but you want more each year than were last year.
Mark Hallock (10:54):
Absolutely.
Mark Clifton (10:54):
So, how do you encourage it?
Mark Hallock (10:55):
Well, part of it is, I mean, it takes years to do. This is why again, it’s underneath the danger of quick fixes because the goal is to develop a discipleship culture. And what we’re talking about, I think the vision is disciples. Jesus tells us to go make disciples. Well, disciples make disciples who make disciples.
Mark Clifton (11:14):
You’ve got to be a disciple. You have to have been discipled.
Mark Hallock (11:17):
That’s right. But if you haven’t been discipled, so again, where it begins, and you might be looking at your church going, “Dude, we don’t have anybody who could disciple anybody.” Well, then just pick a couple. Jesus poured into 12, right? And his inner three the most, but disciple a few with the vision toward, “I’m discipling you, so that you can go disciple others.” Now, over time-
Dan Hurst (11:39):
And they understand that from the beginning.
Mark Hallock (11:40):
And they understand that and what it looks like of pouring into being in the word together, sharing wisdom. And it’s not a quick fix.
(11:47):
It’s not a quick fix because it takes time.
Mark Clifton (11:48):
But it’s a lasting fix.
Mark Hallock (11:49):
Dude, totally. So we’re here 18 years after we started, because we started discipleship groups like year one, but now it’s part of the culture of our church, where women are discipling women and men are discipling men. Even in the youth ministry, high school guys are discipling younger guys in the middle school ministry, or even in some cases, elementary school. So, it’s a discipleship mentality. You are called to be a joyful, passionate disciple. That is our mission here at Calvery Inglewood, which means you’re a disciple, but part of that means you pour that into others. And before you know it, it’s contagious. And part of it is people feel like they have purpose. It’s not just the pastor who’s teaching us all the time. You’re now pouring into others.
Dan Hurst (12:33):
It’s life change. When I was down in Florida, we did a thing we called youth discipleship missions, and the strategy there was discipleship. Get some kids discipled, getting them into discipling. You don’t get them discipled. You disciple them, and they’re being discipled. And we wanted to take them and put them in a position, kind of like the old lay leadership thing, where or what was it, lay mission weekend? Or whatever it was. We would take a weekend and go to another church that didn’t really have a youth ministry. And I’d get with the pastor or somebody, “How many kids you got that want to participate in a weekend?” “Oh, we got like 11.” And I’d say, “Okay, I’m going to take boys and girls. Tell me how it breaks down.” And he said 11. “Okay. I’m going to give you 11 kids to spend the weekend with you.
(13:22):
And then I’m going to send a couple of adult leaders that will work with your youth people.” And so for a weekend, they would pour themselves into their lives one-on-one, guys with guys, girls with girls.
Mark Hallock (13:34):
That’s cool. Yeah, I like that.
Dan Hurst (13:35):
When those kids would come back, they were changed because they had poured their lives into somebody else. Exactly. They learned so much, and they grew from that. Discipleship, I mean, discipling others creates disciples.
Mark Hallock (13:49):
Totally. That’s right.
Dan Hurst (13:50):
And better disciples.
Mark Hallock (13:51):
It grows you.
Dan Hurst (13:52):
It does. It’s amazing. Now—
Mark Clifton (13:53):
But it is time consuming.
Mark Hallock (13:55):
It is time consuming, and it’s slow.
Mark Clifton (13:57):
It’s slow.
Mark Hallock (13:58):
It’s slow.
Mark Clifton (13:58):
But it’s so much better.
Mark Hallock (13:59):
It is so much better. Number three, we’ve got to more of these. Number three.
Mark Clifton (14:03):
You always have ketchup Sunday.
Mark Hallock (14:05):
Yeah. What?
Mark Clifton (14:07):
Oh, I’m sorry. Some of you probably have that, and you’ll be upset with me. It’s okay. But some folks have a program or an emphasis called “Ketchup Sunday,” and they’re going to catch up the budget and ketchup the attendance. And so, they put little bottles of ketchup all around the church to remind you that next Sunday’s Ketchup—
Mark Hallock (14:29):
You’re dead serious right now, aren’t you?
Mark Clifton (14:30):
I’m dead serious. Next Sunday’s Ketchup Sunday, and everybody brings a bottle of ketchup, and we give it to a food pantry.
Mark Hallock (14:36):
What’s the point of the catch up?
Mark Clifton (14:39):
So, you catch up the budget. You give extra that Sunday.
Mark Hallock (14:41):
Okay.
Mark Clifton (14:41):
So you have a budget catchup.
Mark Hallock (14:42):
You’re able to give some more money.
Mark Clifton (14:43):
And everybody’s there on that Sunday, so we catch up on our attendance. So it’s Ketchup Sunday.
Mark Hallock (14:48):
I’ve never heard of such a place.
Mark Clifton (14:55):
Now some of you are listening and going, “That sounds pretty good.” But you could either have a Ketchup Sunday, or you could have a discipleship program that takes a number of years.
Mark Hallock (15:00):
There you go.
Dan Hurst (15:03):
Oh, I see what you’re saying. That’s what I’m trying to say. Okay, that’s where you’re going. I was wondering where did that—
Mark Clifton (15:05):
It took a while, but it was worth it.
Mark Hallock (15:09):
Oh man, if you guys could have seen our faces, we’re looking at Clifton, going—
Dan Hurst (15:13):
You know the word that was flashing in my mind?
(15:15):
Intervention.
Mark Hallock (15:19):
We knew he was going to crack at some point. Gee whiz. Okay, here’s number three. Number three is real change takes time and patience. And we don’t need to say a lot about that. We know that to lead change well, it takes time. It takes patience. It takes loving people. It takes building relationships.
Mark Clifton (15:36):
I always say you’re not on a mission trip. You’re here for a long haul. So just take it that way.
Dan Hurst (15:40):
Can I add one word to that? Discouragement. It takes discouragement.
Mark Clifton (15:45):
Yeah, you’re going to get discouraged.
Dan Hurst (15:46):
You are going to get discouraged.
Mark Clifton (15:47):
There’ll be seasons of discouragement if you’re going to go through this. You will not do this without a time or a period or several seasons of discouragement. That’s very good word.
(15:56):
Very good word.
Mark Hallock (15:57):
Maybe, we’ll talk about that for just a minute because if you’re listening, some of you are going, “Man, I’m really discouraged right now.”
Mark Clifton (16:04):
After Elijah brought down the fire from heaven and the prophets of Baal and then the wicked woman goes after him, he releases his servant, lets his servant go home, because if you release your servant, you’re quitting. So he’s resigned from ministry. He’s done. He hides into a cave. I mean, you can look time after time in the Scripture, and even after the Scripture, even in, we’ve said before, Judson got so discouraged in his life one time, he went behind his own hut and dug his own grave and set by it. Didn’t take his life, but he dug his own grave. Spurgeon would become so defondant and discouraged. He didn’t think he could continue to preach. Martin Luther became so discouraged with the ineffectiveness of his preaching that he refused to get in the pulpit for a year and a half. I mean, discouragement’s going to be part of this, and you’re going to have to lean into Jesus more than ever to get through it.
(16:57):
And don’t read the discouragement as a reason to quit. It’s a reason to keep going.
Mark Hallock (17:00):
Wow.
Mark Clifton (17:01):
It’s a reason to buckle under. And this means … As again, Henry Blackaby used to always say, if you’re going through a really hard suffering time, God’s preparing you for an even greater ministry ahead. That’s part of the preparation.
Dan Hurst (17:14):
And one of the things that I’ve learned in my own life is discouragement is actually the loss of courage. And so it’s that sense like I can’t go on. I don’t feel like I can go on. I don’t want to go on. I don’t have it in me to go on. And I’ve just lost the courage to continue. And really when there’s a sense of a loss of boldness there. And one of the key things that you need in a time like that, and that’s where you need people with you is the early Christians, they gathered together and prayed for each other to have courage and boldness.
Mark Hallock (17:45):
Well, dude, and that’s the power of encouragement. Okay. So last, so the danger of quick fixes, number one, programs cannot replace spiritual renewal. Number two, structural change cannot substitute for discipleship. Number three, real change takes time and patience. And then number four, long-term faithfulness produces lasting health. And that’s what we want to be about, ultimately, by God’s grace, is long-term faithfulness.
Mark Clifton (18:13):
Staying n it for the long haul and not giving up.
Mark Hallock (18:16):
Preach, pray, love, and stay.
Mark Clifton (18:20):
And again, I think the church growth movement among other things has really hindered us in that because we think we always have to be in a church that’s growing, and most churches aren’t.
(18:29):
And so sometimes we look to leave to go to church that is growing numerically and maybe God … I mean, He obviously wants many of us to stay in this same place, in this hard place, this difficult place, this challenging place. And He wants us to stay there for a long haul, and only eternity will reveal the true results of your labor in that hard place, but your labor will not be wasted if you do it for Him when you do it out of obedience. It will absolutely produce fruit that only—you’re only going to see once you get to heaven.
Mark Hallock (18:56):
Amen.
Mark Clifton (18:56):
And you’re going to be blown away by how much fruit it has produced. But it’s the consistent living it out day in and day out and being with it for the long haul and not chucking it up and giving it in. And we live in a time when it’s so easy to go somewhere else. I know some of you are saying, “Easy?! I’ve been trying to find a church for three years!”
(19:14):
I realize there’s nothing slower than a pastor search committee of a church of 50 people. I mean, you can hire the CEO of Disney twice before they can call a pastor. I get that. But on the other hand, all you got to do now to get your resume out there is push the send button on your laptop or your iPhone and send your resume to any number of hundreds of churches looking for a pastor.
(19:34):
It’s pretty easy to do that and to go someplace else and to find someplace else to go. Back years ago, you had a parsonage, and so you’d have to find another house, and you didn’t ever send your resume out unsolicited. Someone would have to recommend you. So, you pretty much stayed where you were until somebody came and moved you, Dan. You didn’t move on your own.
Mark Hallock (19:54):
Somebody who’s coming after you, basically.
Mark Clifton (19:55):
You didn’t go look for a place. So, you pretty much just, you knew, “I’m just staying here.”
Mark Hallock (19:59):
That’s fascinating. Man, that is a huge shift.
Mark Clifton (20:01):
It’s a huge shift.
Mark Hallock (20:02):
Wow.
Mark Clifton (20:02):
My dad never had a resume in his whole life.
(20:05):
Dad never put his name out in his whole life. Every time my dad moved, some church came to him and said, “Harry, we think God’s calling you to come to our church.” That’s the way it used to be, guys. Interesting. This idea of a resume and sending out your resume unsolicited to a church? That was never thought of in the way we did work.
Dan Hurst (20:23):
Or to a company that sends resumes out.
Mark Clifton (20:26):
Or to a company sends them out for you. So, back then, you stayed where you were until God literally moved you. But today, we’re going to move ourself. We’re going to find another place. Wow. And so I think sometimes you just need to stay where you are until God literally moves you.
Mark Hallock (20:39):
Amen.
Dan Hurst (20:40):
I think one of the greatest words I ever discovered about staying was that you only stay one step at a time.
Mark Clifton (20:47):
That’s true.
Dan Hurst (20:48):
You think about that. Success is really not the end result. Success is the next step of what you do. And so staying is just done one day at a time. That’s the only way it can be done.
(20:58):
We hope this has been somewhat of an encouragement to you, at least, that there are no quick fixes. There are no “quick hacks,” as my friends said. But the fact of the matter is that there are people that are praying for you and seeking to encourage you and lift you up. That’s why we’re here. We want that to happen. And that’s why the North American Mission Board, I think, has been so embracing of and encouraging of allowing us to do this as we love to do. Thank you for spending time with us and please-
Mark Clifton (21:29):
Join me next Sunday for Ketchup Sunday, if you would.
Mark Hallock (21:33):
That’d be great.
Mark Clifton (21:33):
Yeah, we got Ketchup Sunday.
Mark Hallock (21:34):
Clifton wants to start a moveme
Mark Clifton (21:35):
I’m starting a movement. Ketchup Sunday. If any of you have done Ketchup Sunday, I’m serious. It probably works if you’re behind in your budget, and you want to catch up. It’s a little cute, maybe.
Dan Hurst (21:43):
Is it BYOC? Is that the idea?
Mark Clifton (21:44):
If you do Ketchup Sunday, go ahead and send me a picture of it.
Dan Hurst (21:48):
Oh no. Oh my goodness.
Mark Clifton (21:49):
And we’ll create a Facebook Ketchup Sunday group.
Dan Hurst (21:52):
It’ll be exciting. It’d be great. There we go. It’s Sunday. It’s time for us to leave.
(21:57):
Thanks for joining us today on Revitalize and Replant. This podcast is brought to you by the North American Mission Board, where we help dying or struggling churches regain health for the glory of God and the good of their communities. If you found this conversation helpful, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform. To learn more about becoming a replanting pastor or to explore resources about revitalization for your own church, visit churchreplanters.com.
(22:24):
Hey, man.
