Transcript
Dan Hurst (00:03):
Welcome to Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock, where we equip pastors to take their churches from declining to thriving, by pointing them to a new future and a new hope. Join us weekly for encouragement and practical advice in your pastoring journey.
(00:19):
So, here we are with actually why things go wrong at church, or why church declines, the people leave. We were talking about that in the last podcast.
Mark Clifton (00:30):
Yeah, last podcast we talked about why members leave.
Dan Hurst (00:33):
And we’re going to talk about how you can solve that problem. This is Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock, who just stepped out. We decided to start it without him because-
Mark Clifton (00:42):
We did. We wanted to get this rolling.
Dan Hurst (00:44):
So, probably he’ll come back in and go,
Mark Clifton (00:45):
“What?” We’re in his church.
Dan Hurst (00:47):
Yeah.
Mark Clifton (00:47):
So, bless his heart. He has things to do. He has to leave ever so often and take care of something in his church.
Dan Hurst (00:51):
Go let somebody in.
Mark Clifton (00:52):
Let somebody in. And then he comes right back here. So, that’s what he’s doing.
Dan Hurst (00:55):
I’m Dan Hurst. There’s Kyle Bueermann, who is running the controls. And so, let’s talk with the last time we talked about, this is our friend Jim Elliff has written this blog about why people leave the church, and he had 10 reasons. And now we want to kind of follow up on what can you do about it?
Mark Clifton (01:11):
Right. If your church is … And again, Jim Elliff isn’t focused on numbers. We’re not focused on numbers. But when your church declines, it should raise some warning bells. And please go back and listen to the previous podcast because some of the reasons that Jim provides that church has declined is that the sheep are neglected. Pastor spends too much time with disgruntled people. Bitterness is never addressed, rather. Too much time is spent on administration, not enough time on vision, and that kind of thing. But here’s how you can work towards solving these dilemmas. Number one, prayer. And I love what Jim writes. I don’t say this in jest. “Prayer is the way to unleash the God who specializes in the impossible.” Marinate on that for a minute, brothers and sisters. Prayer is the way to unleash the God who specializes on the impossible. You look at your church, and I know many think, “What could happen here?
(02:17):
We are in so much trouble, and it’s so much in decline.” Look, prayer, God can do anything. You know that. He raised Jesus from the dead. He’s going to raise you from the dead. You don’t ever worry. If you’re a true believer in Jesus Christ, pastor, lay member, you don’t worry whether or not you’re going to be raised out of your grave when Jesus returns. I don’t know about you. I got plan B in my life for a lot of things, but I don’t have plan B for resurrection. I mean, he’s going to raise me. I don’t even worry about it. I know that if I’m in the grave, and the Eastern sky opens, and the trumpet sounds, then the dead in Christ are rising first. Now, I’ll be with the Lord already in spirit, but my body’s going to raise out of that grave. I’m not going to raise myself.
(02:59):
He can do it. Pastor, if He can raise your body out of the grave, and you have no doubt that He can do that, He can resurrect your church, and it begins with prayer.
Dan Hurst (03:10):
That unleashes it. Down in Honduras, having grown up in the mission field. We would hear this a lot in little outposts, little churches.
Mark Clifton (03:20):
Okay.
Dan Hurst (03:22):
This one little slogan, I don’t think it was intentional that everybody, “Let’s say this.” It is something that they really, really believed. It took a mission team down there one time, and one of the guys from the church was going to kind of be the lead in the construction because he understood the way that they built buildings down there. And so, he had gotten, it appeared to me a blood clot in his leg. It was all inflamed. It was hot, and it was a lot of pain. And so, he couldn’t even walk. And so it was like, well, he’s not going to be able to help us out a lot. But he asked if we would come over and pray for him. So, we took a team over there, and we actually laid hands. We prayed. And the next morning, when we went to the place of the mission site, there he was already completely, completely refreshed and everything.
(04:15):
And of course, the question is, “What happened?” And he said, “Well,” he said, “You prayed. Why wouldn’t this happen? “And I was talking to the pastor of the mission there, and he said, “In our situation,” he says, “all we have is prayer.”
Mark Clifton (04:30):
“All we have is prayer.”
Dan Hurst (04:31):
He said, “We don’t have doctors.” He said, “We don’t have pharmacies to go get medicine.” He said, “For us, all we have is prayer.” And so we believe prayer works because we see it work. That’s something to remember, folks.
Mark Clifton (04:43):
All we have is prayer. Man, that’s not a bad place to be. That’s a good word. So number one, how do you overcome declining attendance and people who leave your church? First, pray.
(04:53):
Number two, get with hospitality. Loving people is always the right place to start. I mean, if I were a pastor of a shrinking church, man, I would divide the congregation up alphabetically A to E on Monday night, F to J on Tuesday night. I’d open my home. I would have as many people in my home as I could. I would try to have meals with families. If I’m the new pastor or older pastor of this church, and we’re declining, I’m going to start spending time with these people. I’m going to start being hospitable. I’m going to start opening my home. I’m going to model for that for people.
Dan Hurst (05:27):
Well, isn’t that interesting that to be hospitable is a command.
Mark Clifton (05:31):
It is.
Dan Hurst (05:31):
It’s a ministry given to us in the New Testament, but it’s also a command.
Mark Clifton (05:35):
Yes, absolutely. Have more covered-dish meals, have more time to become more hospitable. And if you say, “Well, that sounds normal.” You know what? I’ve been around a long time and when a church starts to decline, sometimes the pastors in that church, they become reclusive. They don’t want to be around people. They feel discouraged. And when you’re discouraged and despondent and depressed, and I know what I’m talking about, you don’t want to be around people, and you become even less hospitable. So, it’s this vicious cycle as the church declines, just when you need to gear it up and open your home and go to lunch with people and visit with people, you start withdrawing because you’re discouraged and depressed, and it gets into this terrible, terrible kind of downward spiral.
Dan Hurst (06:21):
And people want that. They do. People want to feel like they’re welcomed for something. Absolutely. Except for when they do the fellowships with the orange jello with the carrot things in it with raisins in it. That’s up to them.
Mark Clifton (06:36):
When I was a kid, and we’d have these covered dish meals, my mom was such a fanatic about cleaning. I’d get up the night-time to go to the bathroom. I’d come back, and my bed was made. It was like that. So, she was always finicky about cleanliness. She had a list. I’m serious as a heart attack about this. She had a list. When I was a kid, my sisters and I, we’d go to potluck meals at church. She had a list of people’s food we were not supposed to touch because she knew they weren’t clean.
(07:07):
“I don’t eat that because they’re not very clean.” That was my mother. Anyway, okay. Be hospitable. Don’t be like my mother. Number three, leaders should be disciplers. Man, you got to find some ways to be engaged in discipleship in your church. The more someone in your church is engaged with other people in discipleship relationships, the far less likely they are to go to another church. If the only thing that’s kind of keeping them in your church is your pastoral talent and your preaching, they may find someplace else because of the things we talked about in the previous podcast. Their soul’s not being cared for, all those kinds of things. But if they’re in a discipleship connection with other people, that connection’s going to be strong for them, and they’re going to receive some of the shepherding and the care that their soul needs. But Sunday school class doesn’t necessarily provide that.
(08:04):
No.
(08:04):
And if the only thing they have is a Sunday school class and Sunday morning worship or something like that, man, you need to have some way that you’re encouraging your people in discipleship and encouraging people to be disciplers of one another, and especially your leadership. Man, your deacons, your Sunday school leaders, they need to be in discipleship relationships, and they need to be discipling other people. If you can create a culture in your church of true discipleship, you will find the number of people who wander off to another flock will far, far be less than heaven.
Dan Hurst (08:37):
It’s so important that, and you just alluded to this, that the pastor be the model.
Mark Clifton (08:42):
Yes.
Dan Hurst (08:43):
If you’re not modeling discipleship, don’t expect your people to do that.
Mark Clifton (08:47):
No, they won’t.
Dan Hurst (08:47):
And you kind of set the standard for that.
Mark Clifton (08:49):
Yeah. Okay. So number four- What are you talking about? Oh, he’s here.
Dan Hurst (08:53):
Okay.
Mark Clifton (08:53):
He’s here. Hey.
Dan Hurst (08:55):
It’s Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock.
Mark Hallock (08:59):
What’s up, guys? ,Sorry about that.
Mark Clifton (09:00):
No, we told them you are pastoring a church and doing a podcast at the same time, and you had to go let somebody in.
Mark Hallock (09:06):
I had to go run. I had to go address something. So, thank you. Sorry about that. Just- where we at? Where are we at?
Dan Hurst (09:11):
We’re talking about this. Where are we at? Where are we at? We’re talking about now.
Mark Clifton (09:15):
You’re already prepared for this, aren’t you? I’ll say whatever you want.
Dan Hurst (09:20):
Let me at it.
Mark Clifton (09:22):
Put me in, coach. I’m ready to play. I want to look at a swing hard. Jim Elliff, his …
Dan Hurst (09:30):
Are you upset about that?
Mark Clifton (09:31):
I am. No. We’re looking at-
Mark Hallock (09:34):
No, this is part two. I mean, of our section.
Mark Clifton (09:36):
Yeah, that’s right. It’s the way we can address members who leave the church.
Mark Hallock (09:40):
Right, okay. Yep, got it.
Mark Clifton (09:41):
And while you were out, we said the first way you address a loss in membership is to pray because prayer unleashes the power of God who can do the impossible. Then, we say, you should have been in here.
Dan Hurst (09:55):
Yeah, it was really, really good.
Mark Clifton (09:56):
It was. I’m sure it was. Number two, get in with hospitality. He says, “Man, take…” We won’t go through the whole thing again, but get in. Number three-
Mark Hallock (10:04):
11 people.
Mark Clifton (10:05):
Number three, man, disciple people, and make people disciple makers.
(10:09):
And now number four, Mr. Hallock.
Mark Hallock (10:10):
Okay, you ready?
Mark Clifton (10:11):
Leaders must prioritize the needs of the church. First, just make a list of what it takes to be healthy, and then why do I have to do the most important thing first?
Mark Hallock (10:20):
Wow.
Mark Clifton (10:21):
You have to make sure that you’re spending time doing things that matter the most
Mark Hallock (10:26):
Yes
Mark Clifton (10:27):
Rather than matter the least.
Dan Hurst (10:28):
It’s interesting that, and the way he worded this suggests that it’s not the pastor’s job to do that. Right. I mean, it is his responsibility, but it is a collective thing. If the church is going to close the back door, it’s the church that closes the back door, not the pastor. And so your leaders have to be involved in this.
Mark Hallock (10:48):
But here’s the thing, though. As a leader, you’ve got to know what the most important things are. And then help your church know what the most important things are.
Mark Clifton (10:54):
And it may take a year to help the church understand it.
Mark Hallock (10:57):
Yeah, right.
Mark Clifton (10:57):
But he said, here’s some of the important things. You have to restore church discipline. You have to secure a regenerate membership. You have to improve the way the church worships. You have to really engage in some sort of small group relationships. You have to truly have some sort of a plurality of leaders, pastoral leaders. You have to make deacons truly be doers, rather instead of deciders. You have to initiate true evangelism, all of those things. So, which ones do you do first, and how do you get them accomplished? But it does begin with making a list of what are our needs. Some guys don’t even sit down and do that.
Mark Hallock (11:31):
That’s so true.
Mark Clifton (11:32):
And then how do we accomplish those things?
Mark Hallock (11:34):
I love that.
Dan Hurst (11:34):
And I think you have to bring that to the people, too. Once you’ve got that priority, because I mean, if you’re going to close that back door, as we said, you need to give them a reason to say and say, “Look, these are our priorities, and this is where our focus is, and this is where you come in.”
Mark Hallock (11:51):
I mean, I look at that list, and I said, “Really, those are marks of a biblical church.”
Dan Hurst (11:54):
Marks of a healthy church.
Mark Hallock (11:56):
And so you’re teaching that, you’re teaching that from the Scriptures, you’re modeling it, you’re engaging, and helping them to see it and get into it.
Mark Clifton (12:03):
Guys, if your church is in decline, man, have a prayer strategy, become hospitable, invite people into your home all the time, take people to lunch, really lean into discipleship, and then make a list of what it takes for your church to be biblically healthy, and then figure out how for the next year, I’m going to preach on this, so it’ll help the church understand it. Not just going to lay it on them. And then what’s the most important thing we’re going to address first? Is it regenerate membership? Is it our style of worship? What is it? And then begin to address those, not just do it haphazardly.
Mark Hallock (12:33):
That’s right.
Mark Clifton (12:35):
Not one day saying, “Hey, we’re going to change the worship today.” Or one day, “Hey, we’re going to look at our membership role.” There needs to be some planning and strategic thought and some triage. “This is more important than this at this point.”
(12:46):
Number five, do biblical study with men of the church. I mean, men need to discover God’s Word, God’s will for them. Man, I’ll tell you what, the more that you’re especially male folks and men in your church are in … Okay.
Mark Hallock (13:03):
Well, you’ve always said this, by the way, is the importance of reaching young men.
Mark Clifton (13:06):
Well, and when I was at Linwood, we started a Bible study that was geared for guys who didn’t read the Bible. Now we didn’t say that. Hey, for you guys who don’t read the Bible, this is for you. We got one. But we understood, it’s called “Every Man a Warrior.” And it kind of came from the guy who used to work at what was the camp, what do you call it?
Mark Hallock (13:31):
Crusade or something?
Mark Clifton (13:32):
No. What’s the guys who memorize Scripture and all that?
Mark Hallock (13:36):
Navigators?
Mark Clifton (13:37):
Navigators. Thank you. Came from Navigators. And so you can look it up. It’s “Every Man a Warrior.” That’s not a K-State slogan. It is, but that’s not what it’s about. Be sure you do “Every Man a Warrior” Bible study. Otherwise, you’ll get all this K-State stuff. But we’ll put a link to it in the show notes. Okay. The thing about “Every Man a Warrior,” the first thing I did is I took that, and our elders went through it. And it’s important that the elders and I went through it exactly like it is in the book, which is very basic. And it would have been kind of better for us if we sort of took it to the next level, but we didn’t want to do that. I wanted them to take it through at the very basic level. Basically, it helps introduce men to reading the Bible.
(14:15):
Most men in your church don’t read. A few do. I mean, you may have some scholars in your church, but most men don’t spend a lot of time reading other than their iPhone. And so when we went through it together as elders, then each of my elders decided who they would invite. They would get one or two guys with them, and they would meet every week, and they would go through it.
Mark Hallock (14:34):
That’s good.
Mark Clifton (14:35):
And then those guys would try to find one or two guys, and it was a way to introduce men to reading the Bible. And let me tell you, when men are reading the Bible on a daily basis, the marriage changes, the home changes, the children change, the church changes. You really want to address declining membership? Get the men in your church, the husbands in your church, to read God’s Word.
Dan Hurst (14:58):
By the way, you mentioned navigators when Dawson Trotman started Navigators, that was the whole purpose, to disciple men.
Mark Clifton (15:05):
Okay. Well, that’s where this kind of came from then.
Dan Hurst (15:07):
It was his strategy, yeah, because he said, “If we can reach the men, we can reach the families.”
Mark Clifton (15:11):
And so it’s something that’s totally missing in a lot of our churches.
Mark Hallock (15:15):
You can do this, man. Like you guys, you could start a small group right now of men and do everything Clifton just said.
Dan Hurst (15:21):
Yeah. Okay. Well, one of the things that you have to do, and this is the sixth thing that he talks about, and that is to lead the church to commit to the new plan. And that’s really where your men come in, also. I mean, your men are looking … I mean, men are just … We are hunters, gatherers. We like plans, we like strategies. I mean, we want to be a part of that. And if you can find just a handful of men and begin pouring your life into them, and I don’t mean just investing in them with your heart, but investing in them with your life.
(15:55):
Then, you will discover that they will reciprocate that, and they will catch a vision for that ministry. And it may start with one or two. It depends on the size of your congregation, of course. But that strategy will multiply because when they get on fire for the Lord, and God’s doing something in their life, it shows. I mean, it really shows. And that is how a church grows. So, I think leading the church to commit to a new plan is a way of setting them on fire. I mean, they’re looking for a new plan.
Mark Clifton (16:28):
Okay. To go back to “Every Man a Warrior,” which we hadn’t planned on talking about, but I got filled with the Spirit and went with it. Yeah. You can find it on their website, everymanawarrior.com, not hard to remember for sure. And they have three levels of books that you can go through, level one, level two, level three. And I love what it says. “‘EMAW’ is a discipleship Bible study that helps men succeed in life and win the battles they fight every day. Since 2011, 100,000 men in 65 countries and 27 languages have been impacted by this curriculum. It joined with Trans World Radio in 2017 to take the gospel around the world.”
(17:11):
Now, let me be sure that I tell you that I’m not necessarily endorsing every single thing in this book. Everything I saw was fine, but again, it was very elementary in every sense of the word, and I thought it was really helpful, and our people, our guys really enjoyed it.
Mark Hallock (17:31):
Well, sometimes the reason I think it’s good to just at least camp out a little bit. There’s so much out there, but I just know as a pastor in a local church, a simple study like this-
Mark Clifton (17:40):
It was easy.
Mark Hallock (17:41):
It can be so easy. It’s low prep. Like you said, any level of man can benefit from it.
Mark Clifton (17:47):
And then there’s a second level and a third level. So you can continue it, and it’s reproducible for sure.
(17:52):
It’s by Lonnie Berger, B-E-R-G-E-R.
Mark Hallock (17:55):
Okay. Okay.
Mark Clifton (17:56):
So “Every Man a Warrior.” Anyway-
Mark Hallock (17:58):
Well, you got a number seven, right? Number seven.
Dan Hurst (18:00):
Talk about that.
Mark Hallock (18:00):
Which is give some space, then move on to another need of the church in the same way.
Dan Hurst (18:06):
I like the idea of giving some space because, boy, the one thing you don’t want to come across is just bouncing from something to something to something to something.
Mark Hallock (18:13):
That’s so true. Nothing takes root that way.
Dan Hurst (18:16):
And it’s exhausting.
Mark Hallock (18:17):
Yeah, that’s right. That’s right.
Dan Hurst (18:19):
But I think that’s critical. But the idea is that you do move on to the next need in that priority list.
Mark Clifton (18:26):
Can I end with this? These are the words of Jim Elliff. And Jim has been really meaningful in my life. It’s not like Jim and I talk every day or even every week or even necessarily every month, but there have been a few times in my life, critical times when I have contacted him, and he’s always been there for me. And brothers, you need somebody like that. You need a backstop in your life spiritually, not somebody necessarily to talk to every day, but man, if you need them, they are there. And Jim, you have been that for me on a number of occasions, and I deeply appreciate it.
(18:58):
Let me tell you what, let me just read what Jim wrote, and I hope this encourages you, and some of you really need to hear this.
(19:04):
“At the end of this discussion, I want to say that not every church will grow. Some are going to be stubbornly unhealthy, despite the best efforts of godly people like you. Some areas of the world are much harder than others. Some churches live under the shadow of other things, and the going might be tough. I feel for many pastors who are struggling with past mistakes and current issues with very little help, but whining doesn’t accomplish much. At least you should die trying. That church ought to be a little bit better this year than last year.”
(19:39):
And I just love that. I mean, don’t look at success only if it all turns around. “At least die trying, and at least make a little bit of change in somebody’s life in that church between this year and next year.” I think that’s a really good, strong encouragement.
Mark Hallock (19:53):
Love it. Love it.
Dan Hurst (19:54):
That’s a great way to close our podcast this time, recognizing that we have a responsibility, and interestingly enough, our responsibilities do have an end at some point, not yet, but at some point.
(20:07):
So, thank you for tuning in today. It’s been a little disjointed because-
Mark Clifton (20:12):
Not any more than normal.
Dan Hurst (20:13):
Yeah. It’s a good point. I guess that’s true.
(20:15):
Thank you, North American Mission Board, and thank you, Calvary Inglewood, for hosting us.
(20:21):
And please subscribe, if the format that you use, the platform that you use to listen, has that opportunity. It helps the algorithm to help us get the word out about this podcast.
(20:32):
We’ll see you next time.
(20:33):
Thanks for joining us today on Revitalize and Replant. This podcast is brought to you by the North American Mission Board, where we help dying or struggling churches regain health for the glory of God and the good of their communities. If you found this conversation helpful, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform. To learn more about becoming a replanting pastor or to explore resources about revitalization for your own church, visit churchreplanters.com.
(21:02):
Hey, man.
