Transcript
Dan Hurst (00:03):
Welcome to Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock, where we equip pastors to take their churches from declining to thriving, by pointing them to a new future and a new hope. Join us weekly for encouragement and practical advice in your pastoring journey.
(00:19):
Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton, Mark Hallock, Kyle Bueermann at the controls. I’m Dan Hurst. Just got back from lunch at Five Guys. Four guys at Five Guys. Man. By the way, I’d like to send a word out to the corporate level to five guys. You need more peanuts.
Mark Clifton (00:38):
Yeah, ya do. We ate all the peanuts in the store. There was none left in the restaurant.
(00:41):
Were there not many peanuts?
Dan Hurst (00:45):
There was none left. There are a lot of peanut oil left.
Mark Clifton (00:47):
Not a one. We ate every peanut.
Dan Hurst (00:51):
That was good. That was fun. All right. So, we’re back, and we’re going to do … We talk about things that we want to share with you on the podcast. Clifton came up with his brilliant … I have to say, every one of them that he comes up with is brilliant.
Mark Clifton (01:10):
It is brilliant. That’s why my name’s on the podcast, bro.
Dan Hurst (01:13):
So, I came up with it, and he said, “Jim Elliff has a great little …” Well, Jim Elliff is one of our favorite people. That’s right. We’ve had him on several times and always enjoy what he has to say. It hits right home for what we talk about. And he has done this blog on … He’s with Christian Communicators Worldwide, and he’s done this. He wrote this thing about why churches lose members.
Mark Clifton (01:41):
Yeah. And I will tell you this, and Dan, he won’t mind me telling you. I won’t tell you who it was. But this past Sunday, I’ve been coming home from preaching at another church, and I got a phone call from a pastor who said, “Hey, you don’t know me, but my son knows you. He told me to give you a call. I’m really struggling with some discouragement and depression. Having a bad time right now. I’m 66 years old.” He said, “So, I took two Sundays off,” and he said, “I decided to go to a nearby church where I know the preacher well, and he’s a great preacher. So, my wife and I go in there and sit down,” and he says, “I’m sitting down, I look in front of me, right in front of me, is one of my lead men and his wife in my church.”
Dan Hurst (02:15):
No. Oh my gosh.
Mark Clifton (02:17):
And he said
(02:19):
He said, “Right there. What do you do when one of your best members is at another church?” He said, “I was so distraught. I told my wife, ‘We just have to leave. I can’t sit here and look at the back of his head and not … I don’t want to ask him what he’s doing here.'” And he just said, “Man, it hurts so much when people leave your church.” And I said, “Dude, there is a …” I said, “Man, you can bury a member, or they can move away because they got transferred, but when they just go to another church, it hurts.” And so the question is, and why do members leave our churches? And he was kind of dealing with that. He’s like, “Maybe there’s something going on that I’m doing that I’m not aware of. And this guy just doesn’t have the … He doesn’t want to hurt me, so he hasn’t talked to me about it.”
(03:01):
That was his concern. “Am I doing something wrong? Why are these people leaving my church?” And so Elliff has written a wonderful blog here. We’ll attach it to the show notes, but Mark, we’re going to start. He gives several reasons
(03:13):
out of his ministry years of experience. His dad was a pastor. His brothers are all pastors. Believe me, he understands Southern Baptists.
Mark Hallock (03:19):
Yeah, he’s been around.
Mark Clifton (03:20):
So why do people leave your church? Number one, he says, leaders become increasingly administrative.
Mark Hallock (03:27):
Oh, geez, yeah.
Mark Clifton (03:28):
And basically, what that means is if you allow it, your whole time as a church leader can be drained with doing stuff that doesn’t disciple people, doesn’t care for people, doesn’t shepherd people. It’s just organization and organization on top of organization and structure on top of structure. And he says you drift toward an ecclesiastical Bermuda Triangle where you just get lost. You’re constantly administrating, but rarely, rarely do you ever get to really guide people in godly action. You’re just too busy doing the administration.
Mark Hallock (04:05):
Well, and he says, and this is so true, he says, “Leadership is also about inspiration.” If all you’re doing is administration, listen, administration, it does not lead to inspiration. Yeah, you’re half a leader. It needs to be done. It’s very important, but your people need more than that from you. And if you don’t give that to them, the reality is, after a while, they’re going, ‘What is the point here? What are we doing?'”
Dan Hurst (04:29):
The inspiration is what they want. The administration is what you feel like you have to do, but I mean, your people are looking for the inspiration. That’s why they look to you.
Mark Clifton (04:40):
Yeah. But sometimes, let’s be frank about this, brothers. Sometimes, people drive you nuts, and people can be the worst, and you can just lose yourself in administration, and that you can get done. I can move this book from this shelf to that shelf. I can handle this Excel spreadsheet. I can work on this, and it gets done, and I can go home, and it’s getting done. Whereas if I’m working with people, they got the same problems, they got the same issues, they drive me nuts. And so sometimes, we bury ourselves in administration because we’re still doing the work of the church, but we need to spend more time with people and doing what God’s called you to do.
Mark Hallock (05:16):
It’s not necessarily impacting anybody.
Mark Clifton (05:18):
Exactly.
(05:19):
And you have to do it, but you need to see it as something that’s paying the bills, not doing the work.
Mark Hallock (05:23):
Yeah, that’s good.
Mark Clifton (05:24):
Number two, people who become spiritually sick are often left unwell. Do the leaders really know the flock? Unattended sheep get into trouble and become weaker day by day. I remember Henry Blackaby said, “If you’re a shepherd, is a good shepherd. If the sheep leave, does he say, ‘Well, I guess they just wanted to go, and then let’s get some new sheep.'” No, he goes and sees what happened to the sheep. Where are they? A good shepherd does not lose sheep. And so basically he says here, “Do you have a way of dealing with people who are spiritually sick, spiritually weak, spiritually wounded?” I mean, they’re going to get worse if a shepherd doesn’t help them.
Mark Hallock (06:05):
That’s right.
Mark Clifton (06:05):
They’re not going to get better on their own.
Mark Hallock (06:06):
They’re not going to get better.
Dan Hurst (06:07):
We did a research thing with, this was a few years ago, we decided let’s find out why people left our church. And so we did a survey, and it was anonymous. They could respond anonymously, and it truly was anonymous. We didn’t have codes in the papers and everything, but it was totally anonymous, and we sent it to people who were members on the church roll. They were on the church roll, but they weren’t coming to church, which is what is the rule of thumb? 60% basically.
Mark Clifton (06:39):
In a lot of churches, it is. Yeah.
Dan Hurst (06:40):
And so we sent out all of these forms and asked people to respond to them anonymously, and many people did. We got a lot of response on that. The number one reason why people quit coming to our church, 90% by the way, 90% was because people just didn’t care if I was there or not.
Mark Clifton (07:01):
There you go. I mean, brothers, he’s so right. I mean, he said, Elliff says here, “On the inside, people cry out for spiritual care, but it’s often care that never comes. And when people sense they are not loved, they’re going to leave.”
Mark Hallock (07:16):
They’ll leave.
Mark Clifton (07:17):
They’ll leave to find brotherly love in some other places. And sometimes when they quit coming, we get frustrated with them because they’re inconsistent, or they got some sin in their life, and so they’re sort of disobedient. We kind of get irritated with them, and frankly, sometimes we probably have all said, “You know what? It would be a blessed subtraction if they just left.” But what the deacons are supposed to care for the body in a biblical sense, as I understand. That’s why deacons were selected. They’re not there to be the board of the church or to run the church, but how well do your deacons really care for the spiritually sick? And if they don’t, then who is?
Mark Hallock (07:54):
Well, and do you have a system?
Mark Clifton (07:55):
That’s what I mean. Yes.
Mark Hallock (07:56):
You have a system by which people are being cared for. They’re being followed up on. When they’re gone for three weeks, somebody calls them. I mean, that’s what we’re talking about.
Mark Clifton (08:03):
That’s what happens where you are.
Mark Hallock (08:04):
That’s right. Absolutely. You know
Mark Clifton (08:06):
Who’s here every Sunday.
Mark Hallock (08:07):
We know who’s here every Sunday.
Mark Clifton (08:08):
Mark has somebody at every door, and it’s not a big deal. It’s not like we’re checking you in, but they just have an iPad, and you just kind of know who’s here. And if people aren’t here for two or three weeks, somebody’s going to call.
Mark Hallock (08:19):
Somebody knows.
Mark Clifton (08:19):
Yeah. We talk about it every Monday night. And we’re not going to call them. Listen to what we’re not saying.
Mark Hallock (08:23):
Yeah.
Mark Clifton (08:23):
We’re not saying, “Hey, you’ve been gone for three weeks.” What’s up?
Mark Hallock (08:27):
No.
Mark Clifton (08:27):
No. Tell them what you say.
Mark Hallock (08:28):
What it is is it’s simply a cue to check up on them and say, “Hey, how can I be praying for you? We love you so much.”
Mark Clifton (08:34):
You don’t even mention, “You haven’t been here for three weeks.”
Mark Hallock (08:36):
You don’t even mention it.
Mark Clifton (08:36):
No. Don’t mention
Mark Hallock (08:37):
That. We’re just so thankful, but you got to have a system that triggers in your brain. They haven’t been here for three weeks.
Mark Clifton (08:41):
That’s right.
Mark Hallock (08:42):
And we need to pursue … We can’t expect them to come to us. We pursue them.
Mark Clifton (08:47):
That shepherd has to go to his sheep.
Mark Hallock (08:48):
Yep. But you’ve got to have a system. And I’m telling you guys, the smaller your church, actually the easier this is because you can have an airtight system, but that doesn’t mean it’s not hard work still.
(09:01):
You still have to make the call. You still need to show up to the house. You still need to send the text.
Mark Clifton (09:05):
And maybe instead of sending the text or sending the email, send a voicemail.
Mark Hallock (09:09):
Send a voicemail.
Mark Clifton (09:09):
And just if they haven’t been there for three or four weeks, don’t say, “Hey, we’ve been missing you.” Don’t say that. No, no, no, no. Just say, “Hey, this is Mark, Pastor Mark, and hey, Greg, just want you to know you were on my heart today, you and your family, and I’m praying for you, and man, I just love you guys so much. If I can ever do anything for you, let me know.”
Mark Hallock (09:25):
And one of the things that I do regularly is I just ask just, here’s literally what I’ll say, and I mean it. “Hey, we just love you,” so thankful. I try to think of something particular. “Hey, I know Shaun just started soccer season. How’s that going? Hey, I love praying for your family. How can I pray for you this week?” So, what does that do? It also now I’m waiting for them to respond, and typically they do. “Thank you, pastor.”
Dan Hurst (09:49):
You’re building a relationship.
Mark Hallock (09:50):
Yeah. “We’d love to appreciate you.”
Dan Hurst (09:53):
One of the worst things that can happen in a church, and this came out of this survey that we did. The death blow of a church is a pastor who says, “I didn’t know. ” I mean, you’re in decline. If you’re saying, “I didn’t know.”“
Mark Clifton (10:08):
No. You should know. All right. Number four, he says, “A maintenance mentality takes over.” And that’s where most people don’t want to be a part of something that has no future. We’re just maintaining, trying to hold on, trying to keep the doors open, doing this year what we did last year. There’s just this maintenance. People, especially younger people, they want a purpose in life. They want everything they do to have a meaning and a reason for doing it. And so many churches get into a maintenance mode, and we know what that looks like. We’ve been there. It’s like nothing new is happening. There’s no agenda, new agenda. There’s no desire to understand the community better than we understood it last year. How are we making a ministry footprint larger? How are we penetrating darkness? It’s basically, we’re just hanging on.
Mark Hallock (10:51):
We’re just going through the motions.
Mark Clifton (10:52):
We’re going through the motions. We’re doing the same thing. Dying churches anesthetize the pain of death with an overabundance of activity and maintaining with great passion, outdated programs, and activities that no longer matter.
(11:06):
So basically being busy anesthetizes the pain that you’re not doing anything productive. And so, dying churches can be very busy just maintaining what they’re doing, but not being productive. And people will eventually get weary of that, and they want to go somewhere where they see something really happening, and their spiritual life is growing, and they’re not just maintaining.
Dan Hurst (11:29):
Well, Elliff talks about this, and he says that no new vision is projected. There you go. Think about that. No new vision. The idea that you have to have a new … We think of it as, we don’t always have to be doing something new. Yeah, you do. You
Mark Clifton (11:43):
You got to have a new vision. Lay it out there.
Dan Hurst (11:45):
And if anything, it’s new vision for the new people.
Mark Clifton (11:49):
That’s right.
Dan Hurst (11:49):
So, no new vision is projected, and communication is reduced because there isn’t anything to communicate.
Mark Clifton (11:55):
Yeah. So, it’s just maintaining same thing. It is maintaining. Yeah. And there’ll be a small group of people for whom that’s wonderful. They like the familiarity. And they’ll affirm you, “Oh, you’re so pastor. We love you so much.” But you’ll see other people will be leaving. Number five, pastors are focused on the disgruntled people. In a diminishing church, people are often disgruntled, though they don’t fully know why. Like the poor, disgruntled people will always be with us. I love that.
(12:23):
But even in a good church, there’s no shortage of analysis going on. Husbands and wives are talking to each other on the way home to church. “I think the problem is whatever.” At first, this may not be mean- spirited, but loving analysis can turn into critical bickering and even disloyalty. I mean, pastors are focused on the disgruntled people, and you need to deal with difficult people, but you don’t want to spend all your time with difficult people. You want to be completely sucked into that vortex where all you’re doing is dealing with a handful of people who are never going to be happy. That’s what he’s saying. There’s always going to be a percentage of people in your church. No matter what you do, they’re not going to be happy.
Mark Hallock (13:01):
They’re not going to be happy about it.
Mark Clifton (13:02):
And it’s not that you totally ignore them, but you don’t let them take a disproportionate amount of your time from the healthy people who never request your time.
Mark Hallock (13:08):
That’s right.
Mark Clifton (13:10):
But still would need it. Yep.
(13:11):
And so the disgruntled ones are never going to leave, but the healthy ones will. And every pastor that’s listening to me, you know exactly what I’m talking about. Yep. It’s the disgruntled people that drain your time, drain your energy, and you really can’t help them. Sometimes, I’ve recently, as I’ve grown older and even more short patience than I used to be, because my life is a quick vapor about one flu season from heaven, I realize I want to move quickly in what I’m doing. And so, I’ll have some guys that will talk to me and want my time, which is great. I’ll give you my time, but they got issues or problems, and you’ll say to them, “Well, have you done what I asked you to do last time we talked, since the last time we talked? Have you bought that book? Have you read that book?
(13:56):
Did you watch that video?” And they go, “No, I haven’t really done that. ” You know what? Let’s wait and talk until you do that. Let’s accomplish that before we come back and revisit this whole thing all over again because, sometimes, all they really want is your time. They don’t really want help. They just want your time, and you’ve got to be wise enough to know the difference. Number six, bitterness is left uncorrected. Mark, talk about that.
Mark Hallock (14:20):
Oh man.
Mark Clifton (14:20):
Disgruntled people can take all the energy,
(14:24):
But how do you handle bitterness in a church? I mean, it has to be taken care of.
Mark Hallock (14:28):
Yeah, because if you don’t, I mean, you think about it, what happens if you don’t? I mean, do any of it-
Mark Clifton (14:33):
It spreads.
Mark Hallock (14:33):
It spreads. It’s like gangrene, man.
Mark Clifton (14:36):
It does.
Mark Hallock (14:36):
It just does. It’s like a poison.
Mark Clifton (14:38):
And so you attack bitterness at the source.
(14:40):
You need to go talk to the person who’s spreading this kind of bitter … We’ve all done it. And generally speaking, sometimes the bitterness comes from people that you trusted, that loved you and told you you were great and you were wonderful. Maybe on the pastor search team that brought you, and then all of a sudden, you’re doing things that they don’t want you to do. They think they could have controlled you, but now they know they can’t, and then they stab you in the back.
Mark Hallock (15:02):
Well, here’s another … Let me give you an example. Literally right now that I’m dealing with, and this is not the first time this has happened, but you get a family, say they come from whatever background, and this is a family that’s been here probably eight years, and they come into your church, and they just immediately, they love it. They just love it. “We’ve been looking for this church forever.” They love you as the pastor. Man, they’re all in, you know what I mean? And they’re positive, and they’re encouraging, and they’re great, and they’re that way for a long time, for years. And then something happens, and they don’t like something. In this case, let’s just say, yeah, we had a building project for a new playground area, right? Well, anyway, the guy for whatever reason, he did not want to see us do that.
(16:02):
He said, “This doesn’t feel like who we are.” And I’m going, “Dude, it’s a playground for kids. We got 150 kids coming.” Well, anyway, he just couldn’t get over it. Well, here’s the thing, that’s been now a couple, a year-and-a-half or so, and he’s just been bitter, and I get with him, you can just tell, and it’s like, “Hey man, what’s going on?” And he’s like, and what it’s become is, “Man, I just don’t know if I can trust you guys and the elders here anymore.”
Mark Clifton (16:28):
Wow.
Mark Hallock (16:29):
And I’m like, “Well, help me understand that. ” And you can’t pin him down on anything. And so he’s just like, “I just don’t know, man. I just think things have changed.” Well, here’s my point. The bitterness has come to a point where now we’re having the conversation. “Bud, listen, this is not good for you. It’s not good for your wife and kids, and it’s not good for us. And I love you, but dude, if you can’t trust the elders in our church, and this has been a year-and-a-half.
Mark Clifton (16:52):
That’s right.
Mark Hallock (16:53):
You’re not happy. You’re not getting over this. And I say this in love. I think it might be time to find a church where you can trust the elders and where you feel loved by them.” Now here’s the pickle. This family has never been loved like they’ve been loved in this church. So they’re going, so they don’t want to leave, but he’s also not happy with things. And it’s like what I found is you have to address that because here’s the truth. This is what I told him. I said, “Bro, for some reason, you can’t get over this.” And I would say, “Either you’ve got to ask the Lord to help heal this in you and come to the point where you can trust our elders, or else you’ve got to move on. Life is too short for you to be miserable in our church.
(17:40):
It’s just not worth it.” And nobody’s actually confronted him on that because here’s what happens with guys like this. They can kind of bicker to others, and nobody calls them on it. That’s right. You know what I mean? But I can see how it’s affecting his wife. I can see how it’s affecting his kids, and his kids have gotten older over eight years. Now, they’re teenagers. They’re not dumb. They hear Dad talking in the car on the way home
Dan Hurst (18:01):
And- And it’s learned. It’s a learned behavior.
Mark Hallock (18:03):
So, point being, you’ve got to address this stuff, because one, it can’t affect other people, and it’s not good for him. You try preaching to a dude like that, and he’s got his arms crossed every Sunday, and he’s just bitter. You got to deal with that stuff.
Mark Clifton (18:19):
And if you don’t, he may stay, but other people will leave.
(18:23):
Because they’ll pick up on that tension. Absolutely. And the point of this podcast is why do people leave our church? It’s not that the bitter person leaves or the disgruntled person. Other people leave if you don’t deal with that. If you don’t deal with it. Number seven, I like this. Attrition gradually takes people away. I mean, any church is going to lose people by death or by physically moving away. And if you don’t actively participate on reaching new people, then your church will decline. So, sometimes, even if everything else is going okay, none of these things we’ve listed happen just by people moving away and passing away. If you’re not reaching new people, your church will decline. Number eight, the church becomes a small static group with little vitality, and people spend most of their time reminiscing about what we used to have and what used to happen, and you know that.
(19:10):
You’ve been in a church like that.
Mark Hallock (19:12):
Oh yeah.
Mark Clifton (19:12):
You know what it’s like to have the same group show up, and there’s some comfort in that sameness. There’s some curity in that sameness, but it’s like a cul-de-sac. It doesn’t lead you anywhere.
Mark Hallock (19:24):
Well, how are they spurring one another on?
Mark Clifton (19:27):
Well, they’re not.
Mark Hallock (19:27):
They’re not.
Mark Clifton (19:28):
They’re not spurring one another onto action. They don’t have that sense of mission with Jesus.
Mark Hallock (19:32):
That’s right.
Mark Clifton (19:33):
It’s just like, they’re just in a cul-de-sac. Everybody likes each other, but they just keep going in circles. Number nine, the building deteriorates for lack of interest. It is one thing, brothers and sisters, for the building to deteriorate because you’re overusing it. And I’ve seen that’s great news. That’s here. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, that’s good. I walk into this church, this old mid-century building- It’s beat up. It is beat up, but it is beat up because it is used 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Yeah, that’s right. And you can tell this building, there are no cobwebs in it. There’s no unused rooms in it. No, that’s true. Every room has about three or four purposes. Every inch of this space is used. Now, this building in Inglewood, Colorado, it’s not beautiful. It’s not glorious, it’s not glamorous. And frankly, Mark, it could use a little attention.
Mark Hallock (20:17):
Oh, it sure could. Absolutely.
Mark Clifton (20:19):
But it needs attention because you’re so busy here.
Mark Hallock (20:21):
It’s being used.
Mark Clifton (20:22):
There’s a difference between that and I walk into a building, and it’s like this thing is falling apart, and nobody’s here. It’s like a vacant building.
(20:30):
You walk in, and Rainor and I used to say, “What year is it?” “Well, it’s 1982.” Nothing has changed in this building for 45 years, and it needs everything updated. The reason that looks that way is it communicates to people that everything’s deteriorating. If you can’t take care of your building, can you really take care of my needs that I have? And it’s indicative of that. So, you’ll notice a deteriorating building will often give you a sense. And again, people will start wandering away and start leaving. You’re letting that go. Number 10, this is the last one. So, let’s go back real quick, in case you missed it, in case you tuned in late. You can’t tune in late to a podcast, can you? That’s even possible, is it? Can you tune in to halfway through the podcast?
Dan Hurst (21:17):
You can. You can.
Mark Clifton (21:18):
Okay. Why would you, though? You missed the best part. Number one, leaders become too involved in administration. Number two, people who are spiritually sick are left unwell. Number three, no vision is projected, no new ideas. Number four, there’s a maintenance mentality that takes over. Number five, pastors are focused too much on only the disgruntled people. Number six, bitterness is left uncorrected. Number seven, attrition takes people away, and if no one’s replacing them, your church will decline. Number eight, the church has become a small static group that just remembers the good old days. Number nine, your building begins to deteriorate for lack of use. Number 10. Pastors leave too soon, having no fulfillment in their work or hope of affecting any change. Oh boy. And your church becomes a place where you have a series of short-term pastors. And the church thinks, “Well, the next pastor will turn us around.”
(22:12):
And when you start having that series of short-term pastors, every pastor comes, and he gets more discouraged, and that leaves the people more discouraged.
Mark Hallock (22:18):
People won’t stick with that.
Mark Clifton (22:19):
People won’t stick. No. They’re not going to handle that short-term thing. No. So, I tell you what, we’re not going to leave you here hanging. Yeah, we are actually. For a couple more days, we’ll have a new podcast on what can be done. So, if you’ll hold on, and if the Lord does not return between now and two days, if He does, those of you who are not raptured, you can listen to this podcast.
(22:39):
Will it still go on the air if the Lord …? I don’t know. Ya think NAMB will still put it out there? It’s on the schedule. It’d probably go. Anyway, I don’t know. Come back in a couple of days, and we’ll tell you some of what you can do about declining attendance in your congregation.
Dan Hurst (22:54):
Thanks to the North American Mission Board for making this possible. And thank you, Calvary Inglewood. By the way, you mentioned in one of the previous podcasts that if somebody would like for us to come to their church and do this, that if we can work it out, scheduling-wise. We would like to. So it’s not like we’re stuck in a rut. No. Well, sort of, maybe.
(23:13):
We’re down in a rut in a basement down here, but we’ll come someplace.
(23:15):
But yeah, just let us know, if that’s a possibility. If we can work it out, we’d love to do that because we do enjoy visiting places that are listening to the podcast, and we know that- All three of them. We hope that you’re benefiting from that.
(23:30):
Thanks for joining us today on Revitalize and Replant. This podcast is brought to you by the North American Mission Board, where we help dying or struggling churches regain health for the glory of God and the good of their communities.
(23:43):
If you found this conversation helpful, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform. To learn more about becoming a replanting pastor or to explore resources about revitalization for your own church, visit churchreplanters.com.
(23:58):
Hey, man.
